cozdude
Guy with a Red 2-Door
what you mean to say is that a balance wobble can be misconstrued as death wobble. its cheaper and easier to eliminate balance wobble first just to make sure its full blown death wobble
Desperate for a 4x4 shop near Loyalton, CA (or Truckee or Reno)
- Thread starter cosmokenney
- Start date
cosmokenney
Active Member
Every component has been checked for play and every single fastener has been loosened and torqued to spec. Both the lift and steering are too new to have play anyway. The amount of toe-in and castor is the only logical next step. It is cited all over the Internet that toe and castor are common contributors to death wobbles. And in fact when I reduced the toe to about 0.1 to 0.2 degrees it stopped the violent death wobble. The only thing that remains a problem at this point is a slight wobble/shimmy when going over bumps. Castor should still be at 6ish degrees.
I do welcome any suggestions for finding the root cause of the remaining wobble if you have any, though.
cosmokenney
Active Member
I forgot to mention that I am still getting vibrations at certain speeds. I can feel them in the steering wheel. I firmly believe this to be related to some heavy wet snow that got packed up into the wheels and scraped off some weights. I will be making an appointment next week to get the wheels rebalanced.
But this is a different feeling than the wobble I get when I hit a bump.
CalSgt
Hooked
There’s a place in Susanville, McCracken Motorsports. I can’t personally vouch for them but I believe they do work on custom type stuff. I grew up with the owner and always liked him but have no need for his services. A few guys from work have given positive reviews though, one guy is getting the auto trans in his 7.3 power stroke swapped for a 6 speed manual for less than the replacement auto trans was going to cost.
I know a lot of shops don’t really want anything to do with trouble shooting and solving things like lifted jeep death wobble because it can end up being a can of worms.
Every time my Jeep has had a wobble problem it’s been:
Toe getting knocked out of whack
Front track bar bushings
Track bar loose
AND
one time a rear track bar bushings went out, that caused totally different feeling
I chased the wobbles for a long time replacing parts over a period of time. I discovered that previously replaced parts were being destroyed by the wobble. I’d repair something and it would improve but not be eliminated. Ended up going nuts because I was certain the problem wasn’t caused by my almost new parts.
One of the things I discovered eventually was my Fox stabilizer was shot, it had absolutely no dampening. The theory from many here on WAYALIFE is stabilizers mask death wobble and do nothing for the actual problem. While I agree, I discovered replacing my busted stabilizer with a working one prevented my jeep from destroying bushings and parts so fast I couldn’t get to other problems before the last repair was destroyed.
Don’t automatically exclude areas you’ve already inspected and even a tiny bit of play can cause a shimmy.
Good luck Sir
I know a lot of shops don’t really want anything to do with trouble shooting and solving things like lifted jeep death wobble because it can end up being a can of worms.
Every time my Jeep has had a wobble problem it’s been:
Toe getting knocked out of whack
Front track bar bushings
Track bar loose
AND
one time a rear track bar bushings went out, that caused totally different feeling
I chased the wobbles for a long time replacing parts over a period of time. I discovered that previously replaced parts were being destroyed by the wobble. I’d repair something and it would improve but not be eliminated. Ended up going nuts because I was certain the problem wasn’t caused by my almost new parts.
One of the things I discovered eventually was my Fox stabilizer was shot, it had absolutely no dampening. The theory from many here on WAYALIFE is stabilizers mask death wobble and do nothing for the actual problem. While I agree, I discovered replacing my busted stabilizer with a working one prevented my jeep from destroying bushings and parts so fast I couldn’t get to other problems before the last repair was destroyed.
Don’t automatically exclude areas you’ve already inspected and even a tiny bit of play can cause a shimmy.
Good luck Sir
GP NOIR
Hooked
Now that your Death Wobles have been dealt with, it's time to chase down ordiinary wobbles and shimmies. This is when tire balancing and alignment (toe & castor) pay off.
When you reduced the toe, it stopped triggering what play or flex was in the steering linkage. While adjusting the toe eliminated that trigger, it would be a matter of time until the parts wear enough that the DWs return. I've been down that path in my first Cherokee.
The internet lies. The only way castor and/or toe can triger the DW cycle is if something in the steering has play and/or flexes. If everything in the steering is solid, neither castor or toe can push it around. Castor and toe can then only push the tires around which will be felt as a shimmy. The same is true for tire balance.
When you reduced the toe, it stopped triggering what play or flex was in the steering linkage. While adjusting the toe eliminated that trigger, it would be a matter of time until the parts wear enough that the DWs return. I've been down that path in my first Cherokee.
I would never pretend to know as much as what can be cited on the internet but in my very limited experience working on Jeeps, I can say that too little caster or zero caster can make it easier for death wobble to occur. However, it's far from what I would call a "common contributor". More like, something that can instigate an episode IF something like a loose or worn out steering and or suspension component exists.
Same is true of toe. The whole point of setting toe in on something like a mostly rear wheel driven Jeep is to help your tires wear evenly. When driving, your tires naturally want to pull outward and ideally, you set your toe in just enough so that your tires are parallel when moving forward. On a front wheel drive vehicle, you actually want to set your toe OUT as again, when driving, your tires will want to pull inward. IF ANYTHING, when trying to get home with a case of bad death wobble, you can temporarily set your toe OUT on your Jeep and this will help mitigate the wobble. However, setting your toe out or in too much will lead to really bad tire wear.
That said, that's just what I've learned over the last 25+ years of doing this Jeep thing and having to personally deal with death wobble and fix it multiple times during that time. Of course and as I stated, I would never pretend to know more than what can be cited on the internet.
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It really is lame that these new JL Wranglers and JT Gladiators are so much more prone to death wobble than any other Jeep made in the past. There are a few things that really don't help anything like the aluminum steering box that the JL originally came with or the aluminum steering knuckles that most still come with or the ball joints that have plastic components that can wear out quickly and lot have come with loose nuts from the factory. But I have to say, I really do think that the electric steering box might have something to do with wobble as well. I say this because I have seen more than a few bone stock JL's and JT's with death wobble and even on ones with iron steering boxes. I can't say with absolute certainty but it does seem that unlike the JK or TJ before, a good steering stabilizer is NEEDED to help keep things under control.
Me personally, I have found this steering stabilizer to do a better job than the OE and without it being so over powering that it influences steering.
For people with wobble issues, this alone has done a great job of helping to mitigate it.
I should also note that the factory track bar and even A LOT OF AFTERMARKET ONES use a frame side spherical joint that utilizes plastic components. These components can wear out quickly and lead to death wobble. That said, I have personally found that this cheap alternative that comes with clevite bushings on both ends does a much better job of holding your front axle in place and again, even better than a lot of the more expensive options out there.
Hope this helps.
Me personally, I have found this steering stabilizer to do a better job than the OE and without it being so over powering that it influences steering.
For people with wobble issues, this alone has done a great job of helping to mitigate it.
I should also note that the factory track bar and even A LOT OF AFTERMARKET ONES use a frame side spherical joint that utilizes plastic components. These components can wear out quickly and lead to death wobble. That said, I have personally found that this cheap alternative that comes with clevite bushings on both ends does a much better job of holding your front axle in place and again, even better than a lot of the more expensive options out there.
Hope this helps.
benatc1
Hooked
I’ve ran 2 different lifted JKs in the past without steering stabilizers, never an ounce of death wobble, the JLs/JT that I’ve owned, i have chased wobbles on every one of them, and never feel like if fully got it, just masking with the stabilizer, so there is definitely something to this.
jeeeep
Hooked
IMO, I think most of the front components on the JL/JT are under-torqued, because of the aluminum knuckles?
When I replaced the knuckles on the JLU with Synergy's iron, the only item than didn't fall out when the nuts were removed were the ball joints; all other parts fell out, no hammer tapping required.
cosmokenney
Active Member
That is why I am asking here. I know there can be some both good and bad info on the internet, and that is my only source of truth about the JLs. But I like to verify by asking people that I perceive has having way more off road experience than me. I have lifted a nissan frontier, and of all things a subaru forester and never had problems like this with them. Both the YJ and XJ that I owned in the past remained stock the entire time I owned them. So, I have no experience with lifted jeeps.
I said what I said about common contributors because everything I've read says check the trackbar first, then the joints/bushings on all the other components, ball joints, then castor and toe. I wasn't trying to say that the internet is right and that GP NOIR was wrong. I was feebly trying to explain why I was chasing toe and caster now that I feel that I have eliminated play in the joints.
The only "play" that I see is when the steering box pulls away from the frame while turning back and forth. Even with the frame side trackbar brace installed. And a little in the drivers unit bearing.
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cosmokenney
Active Member
I too have often felt like the steering is doing something weird in the JL. I have pondered that the software senses something it doesn't like and then over compensates. Then it just snowballs from there. Though I have a hard time convincing myself that the software would try to decide it knows better than the person behind the wheel. Then again, the software also throws the vehicle into park when you open the door while driving. That can't be good for the transmission. LOL.
Anyway have this trackbar now. I suppose I could try the Rough Country.
I also have the RS7MT stabilizer after you suggested it a while back. It helped for a while. But it is toast now. It only damps in one direction. The other direction is all air so it acts more like a spring. After discovering that, I actually sent my ~5 y/o Fox TS back to fox for a refresh and asked if they could increase the damping a little over the default amount. We'll see how that goes.
I have the steel steering box replaced with the TSB early on. And I have checked the part number to verify I got the 2 door version.
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benatc1
Hooked
Yea that seems like a tolerance issue, which make sense if there are a bunch of weak links in the system,
bobfriesenhahn
Hooked
Recall that in the early '70s it was decided that aluminum was the next best thing for residential wiring and so many houses were built using aluminum wiring. Then the wiring started to go bad. It was discovered that aluminum gradually "mooshes" over time so that things which used to be tight became loose.
Maybe the same thing applies to steering knuckles.