Regearing? An age old question..But wait, there's more.. how's your oil filter?

[WJCO]

I'll second what others have said about the gears. Let the shop pick the gears. Then the warranty is with them and the customer can't be blamed if there is a parts problem. Now if they tell you they get their gears from Fauci's Overseas Lab, well then find a different shop.

As far as oil filters (that got brought into this thread), I've never thought of Fram as a quality filter but more of a budget option. I always try and use OEM stuff, especially when the vehicle is still under warranty. And working at a dealership, I've seen many claims denied for aftermarket filters; it happens from time to time.

 

[DanW]

There is a reason Mopar will void your warranty for using any filters besides theirs. I personally saw a Fram airfilter get sucked into the intake of a ram 2500. It may filter better but not allowing the required flow for the motor to operate properly is just as bad as no filter. As for competing for your business. This industry is few and far between. If I was the owner I'd tell you to go pound sand. Labor rates are pretty firm and parts are where the profits are. Just like good customer service goes a long way good customers make good customer service easier to provide. I can tell you'd be a headache for along time after. Good luck on your adventure.

BTW: 2021 Best Oil Filters

Several things you just said there are so ridiculous, we are all now dumber for having read it.

Thank you.

 

[Snboarder113]

I'll second what others have said about the gears. Let the shop pick the gears. Then the warranty is with them and the customer can't be blamed if there is a parts problem. Now if they tell you they get their gears from Fauci's Overseas Lab, well then find a different shop.

As far as oil filters (that got brought into this thread), I've never thought of Fram as a quality filter but more of a budget option. I always try and use OEM stuff, especially when the vehicle is still under warranty. And working at a dealership, I've seen many claims denied for aftermarket filters; it happens from time to time.

My issue with them isn’t non oem. It’s they’re made of garbage. It’s been extremely well documented all over the Internet. Glad you’ve had good luck but that orange can will never touch any of my engines.

 

[DanW]

I'll second what others have said about the gears. Let the shop pick the gears. Then the warranty is with them and the customer can't be blamed if there is a parts problem. Now if they tell you they get their gears from Fauci's Overseas Lab, well then find a different shop.

As far as oil filters (that got brought into this thread), I've never thought of Fram as a quality filter but more of a budget option. I always try and use OEM stuff, especially when the vehicle is still under warranty. And working at a dealership, I've seen many claims denied for aftermarket filters; it happens from time to time.

That makes perfect sense. But note that the Fram I'm running is not the Extra-Guard, which is actually a decent filter. But rather the Ultra, which is neither cheap nor low quality.

I'm sure there were more complexities involved in those warranty denials than just aftermarket filters. Neglect to change is probably one of them. I've got a lifetime warranty on my JK and the dealership is well aware that I run mostly aftermarket filters. They also know my engines are expertly maintained and run like new. My JK is at 154k miles.

A friend of mine is a Stellantis engineer and was on the original Pentastar design team. He runs aftermarket filters and products all the time on his cars. His favorite being a 300 with a Pentastar that is approaching 200k miles. He considers the Fram Ultras to be one of the best offerings on the market. Why? He knows the standard tests and data. He likes Mopar filters just fine, but will tell you there is no issue with a major brand filter being run on their engines, including air, oil, or transmission. What he will tell you is that if you have a defective filter or neglect to change according to the FCA (Stellantis) maintenance schedule for your vehicle, and a related problem develops, they might void the warranty then.

I'm going to get us back on topic, which is not about filter choice. The two shops I'm looking at are both owned by friends. They will NOT tell me to go pound sand because they like me and I like them. One shop re-built my YJ axles after water intrusion from an off-road trip. The other is just a friend in a Jeep club. I've steered a great deal of business to both of them over the years, and they both know that. They will both give me good advice, I am sure. And I'm confident they both will tell me to bring the parts if they feel they are just as good and if they can't compete on price. That said, if it isn't a huge difference, I'll go with what they recommend. One of them I am almost sure will go with Dana/Spicer parts. The other, I really don't know but will be curious as to what he'll want to use. Both will warrant their workmanship. I doubt either will warrant the parts any more than their manufacturer, but we'll see. If they do, then that'll be a plus for going with the parts they supply. Essentially, I'm asking them for quotes for each scenario. One with their parts, one with parts I bring. I'll then decide based on those quotes and their recommendations. But my original question remains. What should I expect in labor for a ring/pinion swap on the Advantec M210 and M220 axles on my JL. Clearly nobody here seems to know.

I'll post up when I've talked to them.

 

[OverlanderJK]

That makes perfect sense. But note that the Fram I'm running is not the Extra-Guard, which is actually a decent filter. But rather the Ultra, which is neither cheap nor low quality.

I'm sure there were more complexities involved in those warranty denials than just aftermarket filters. Neglect to change is probably one of them. I've got a lifetime warranty on my JK and the dealership is well aware that I run mostly aftermarket filters. They also know my engines are expertly maintained and run like new. My JK is at 154k miles.

A friend of mine is a Stellantis engineer and was on the original Pentastar design team. He runs aftermarket filters and products all the time on his cars. His favorite being a 300 with a Pentastar that is approaching 200k miles. He considers the Fram Ultras to be one of the best offerings on the market. Why? He knows the standard tests and data. He likes Mopar filters just fine, but will tell you there is no issue with a major brand filter being run on their engines, including air, oil, or transmission. What he will tell you is that if you have a defective filter or neglect to change according to the FCA (Stellantis) maintenance schedule for your vehicle, and a related problem develops, they might void the warranty then.

I'm going to get us back on topic, which is not about filter choice. The two shops I'm looking at are both owned by friends. They will NOT tell me to go pound sand because they like me and I like them. One shop re-built my YJ axles after water intrusion from an off-road trip. The other is just a friend in a Jeep club. I've steered a great deal of business to both of them over the years, and they both know that. They will both give me good advice, I am sure. And I'm confident they both will tell me to bring the parts if they feel they are just as good and if they can't compete on price. That said, if it isn't a huge difference, I'll go with what they recommend. One of them I am almost sure will go with Dana/Spicer parts. The other, I really don't know but will be curious as to what he'll want to use. Both will warrant their workmanship. I doubt either will warrant the parts any more than their manufacturer, but we'll see. If they do, then that'll be a plus for going with the parts they supply. Essentially, I'm asking them for quotes for each scenario. One with their parts, one with parts I bring. I'll then decide based on those quotes and their recommendations. But my original question remains. What should I expect in labor for a ring/pinion swap on the Advantec M210 and M220 axles on my JL. Clearly nobody here seems to know.

I'll post up when I've talked to them.

You sound like a mega douche. Too bad for those shops that they are friends with you.

 

[DanW]

My issue with them isn’t non oem. It’s they’re made of garbage. It’s been extremely well documented all over the Internet. Glad you’ve had good luck but that orange can will never touch any of my engines.

And if you knew anything about Fram, you'd know the Ultra is not the orange can, but rather a premium filter. Show me where it is well documented that Fram Ultras are problematic. I'll check back occasionally to see what you have found. But you'll have to show real evidence, not internet horror stories to convince me.

On my end, here are some pics that are not internet rumor or folklore, but rather of a Fram Ultra pulled out of my own 3.6 Pentastar, and torn apart to see how it was made. It took vice grips and a tremendous amount of effort to pull them apart. On the other hand, the Mopar and Mobil 1 filters I've run were able to be pulled apart easily with my bare hands. And the used oil analysis posted below shows insolubles. Interestingly enough, the ones with .02 parts per million insolubles were Fram Ultras. The ones with .03 ppm are Mobil 1. The Mopar, which was the original filter, which was further back than what this historical data shows, was also at .03ppm, which I think is very respectable, considering the oil was the factory fill and was probably stressed more due to holding all the crap from assembly and all the break-in wear metal in check. But then again, it was only in there for 2k miles while the others were in there up to 8k.

So talk is cheap. Here's some real evidence. And btw, the filtering efficiency claimed by Fram is 99+% down to 20 microns. The Mobil 1 is 99% down to 30 microns. The data from my UOA's appears to confirm the Fram's superior filtration. Enjoy and flame away!

These are the pleats from a Fram Ultra that had around 8k miles on it when removed. They are a proprietary fully synthetic fibrous media and not a blend with cellulite (paper) as most other oil filters are. And in the 3.6 Pentastar application (cartridge filter, XG11665), they are backed by a webbing that appears to be either some form of polymer or monofilament or maybe nylon. I'm not sure what it is, but it is STRONG and it is absolutely 100% bonded to the pleat material. It is also exceptionally strong in its bond to the polymer end caps of the filter. There is no doubt in my mind that these pleats will survive exponentially greater pressure than any other filter material I've felt.

And here it is torn apart.....

And here is the most recent UOA with historical data on previous ones.



The reason I have run several Mobil 1 filters is because I picked them up on clearance at Walmart last year for about 3 bucks each. I've still got quite a stash to run. Not as good as the Fram, but certainly good enough. Especially for $3 each.

 

[OverlanderJK]

And if you knew anything about Fram, you'd know the Ultra is not the orange can, but rather a premium filter. Show me where it is well documented that Fram Ultras are problematic. I'll check back occasionally to see what you have found. But you'll have to show real evidence, not internet horror stories to convince me.

On my end, here are some pics that are not internet rumor or folklore, but rather of a Fram Ultra pulled out of my own 3.6 Pentastar, and torn apart to see how it was made. It took vice grips and a tremendous amount of effort to pull them apart. On the other hand, the Mopar and Mobil 1 filters I've run were able to be pulled apart easily with my bare hands. And the used oil analysis posted below shows insolubles. Interestingly enough, the ones with .02 parts per million insolubles were Fram Ultras. The ones with .03 ppm are Mobil 1. The Mopar, which was the original filter, which was further back than what this historical data shows, was also at .03ppm, which I think is very respectable, considering the oil was the factory fill and was probably stressed more due to holding all the crap from assembly and all the break-in wear metal in check. But then again, it was only in there for 2k miles while the others were in there up to 8k.

So talk is cheap. Here's some real evidence. And btw, the filtering efficiency claimed by Fram is 99+% down to 20 microns. The Mobil 1 is 99% down to 30 microns. The data from my UOA's appears to confirm the Fram's superior filtration. Enjoy and flame away!

These are the pleats from a Fram Ultra that had around 8k miles on it when removed. They are a proprietary fully synthetic fibrous media and not a blend with cellulite (paper) as most other oil filters are. And in the 3.6 Pentastar application (cartridge filter, XG11665), they are backed by a webbing that appears to be either some form of polymer or monofilament or maybe nylon. I'm not sure what it is, but it is STRONG and it is absolutely 100% bonded to the pleat material. It is also exceptionally strong in its bond to the polymer end caps of the filter. There is no doubt in my mind that these pleats will survive exponentially greater pressure than any other filter material I've felt.

Lol, says the guy with "Resident Smartass" under his avatar.

No there is no evidence in your post. And mine says resident smartass not resident mega douche like you.

 

[DanW]

You sound like a mega douche. Too bad for those shops that they are friends with you

Says the guy with "Resident Smartass" under his avatar. Lighten up, Francis.

 

[DanW]

No there is no evidence in your post. And mine says resident smartass not resident mega douche like you.

Cute name calling. It took a minute to get the photos to a host site. But you might not be familiar with that process, since you've provided no evidence to refute anything. Let me know if you need help with that. See, I may be a douche to you, but I'm still willing to be helpful and constructive.

 

[OverlanderJK]

Cute name calling. It took a minute to get the photos to a host site. But you might not be familiar with that process, since you've provided no evidence to refute anything. Let me know if you need help with that.

No I’m not familiar with you're issues because posting a picture is not as hard as you think.

There I did it.

 

[DanW]

And here's more info to add to the indigestion some around here seem to have developed recently....

The oil runs I've done in the 3.6 are all 0w20 and mostly Mobil 1 AP. I have also done a run of Pennzoil Ultra Platinum and Shell Rotella Gas Truck (Got it for free on clearance and with rebate) and a run of Mobil 1 EP. The most recent UOA was Mobil 1 AFE and that's what is currently in it. I tend to like Mobil 1 products, but will occasionally go for others that I think are excellent, too, if I find a good deal on them. Air filtration is mostly by Wix, but there is a Mopar and an Amazon in there, too. All 3, Wix, Amazon, and Mopar, appeared to be exactly the same construction and materials. I'd guess they all were exactly the same filter from the same supplier.

To add insult to injury, I currently have Valvoline synthetic gear lube 75w90 in the front diff and Mobil 1 75w140 in the rear. And Red Line C+ ATF in the manual transmission and transfer case.

Can't wait to hear the internet stories of how Pennzoil's base oil is Pennsylvania crude and is contaminated with parrafin, or how 0w20 oil will wear the engine out in 20k miles.

 

[DanW]

No I’m not familiar with you're issues because posting a picture is not as hard as you think.

There I did it.
View attachment 364520

Hey, that's progress. I'm very proud of you. Now get yourself a cookie.

And I'm still waiting on filtration data on an oil filter that is superior to a Fram Ultra. Heck, I'll even settle for one that is close.

 

[DanW]

Oh, and btw, ask Eddie @wayoflife how cotton cloth "performance" air filters do on Jeeps that are used in dusty environments and how they compare to the inferior paper air filters. I'm sure you'll consider him a douche, too, once he tells you what you don't want to hear.

Which reminds me: The last oil change analysis included a trip to Moab for EJS, which was VERY dusty, especially when at the rear of our group of Jeeps. So the air/oil filtration still generated only .02 parts per million of insolubles. Hard to argue with that piece of data right there regarding filtration. Hell, even Blacktone mentioned that filtration was good and they had no clue as to the dusty environment during that run.

 

[DanW]

Now, back to my question before the experts all chimed in.

What would a ballpark cost figure be for re-gearing? Is $1500 to $2000 what to expect? If so, I don't think that is too bad.

 

[jesse3638]

And if you knew anything about Fram, you'd know the Ultra is not the orange can, but rather a premium filter. Show me where it is well documented that Fram Ultras are problematic. I'll check back occasionally to see what you have found. But you'll have to show real evidence, not internet horror stories to convince me.

On my end, here are some pics that are not internet rumor or folklore, but rather of a Fram Ultra pulled out of my own 3.6 Pentastar, and torn apart to see how it was made. It took vice grips and a tremendous amount of effort to pull them apart. On the other hand, the Mopar and Mobil 1 filters I've run were able to be pulled apart easily with my bare hands. And the used oil analysis posted below shows insolubles. Interestingly enough, the ones with .02 parts per million insolubles were Fram Ultras. The ones with .03 ppm are Mobil 1. The Mopar, which was the original filter, which was further back than what this historical data shows, was also at .03ppm, which I think is very respectable, considering the oil was the factory fill and was probably stressed more due to holding all the crap from assembly and all the break-in wear metal in check. But then again, it was only in there for 2k miles while the others were in there up to 8k.

So talk is cheap. Here's some real evidence. And btw, the filtering efficiency claimed by Fram is 99+% down to 20 microns. The Mobil 1 is 99% down to 30 microns. The data from my UOA's appears to confirm the Fram's superior filtration. Enjoy and flame away!

These are the pleats from a Fram Ultra that had around 8k miles on it when removed. They are a proprietary fully synthetic fibrous media and not a blend with cellulite (paper) as most other oil filters are. And in the 3.6 Pentastar application (cartridge filter, XG11665), they are backed by a webbing that appears to be either some form of polymer or monofilament or maybe nylon. I'm not sure what it is, but it is STRONG and it is absolutely 100% bonded to the pleat material. It is also exceptionally strong in its bond to the polymer end caps of the filter. There is no doubt in my mind that these pleats will survive exponentially greater pressure than any other filter material I've felt.

And here it is torn apart.....

And here is the most recent UOA with historical data on previous ones.

View attachment 364519

The reason I have run several Mobil 1 filters is because I picked them up on clearance at Walmart last year for about 3 bucks each. I've still got quite a stash to run. Not as good as the Fram, but certainly good enough. Especially for $3 each.

It would probably take vice grips to pull your own head out of your ass too. No one gives a shit about your OA or your pentastar engineer buddy. I'm basing my info off of what dealerships have told me about warranty work being voided due to after market filter usage. That goes to FCA (Stalantis) for review. So go back to nickle and diming your "friends" and trying to exploit a deal because you have directed business to them. As the resident smart ass said you're a douchbag. See Ya Next Tuesday!

 

[DanW]

It would probably take vice grips to pull your own head out of your ass too. No one gives a shit about your OA or your pentastar engineer buddy. I'm basing my info off of what dealerships have told me about warranty work being voided due to after market filter usage. That goes to FCA (Stalantis) for review. So go back to nickle and diming your "friends" and trying to exploit a deal because you have directed business to them. As the resident smart ass said you're a douchbag. See Ya Next Tuesday!

"I'm basing it on what dealerships have told me..."

Now there's a great source of information right there. Dealership personnel. I'm sure people care far more about what a service advisor says as opposed to a design engineer. Somewhere there might be someone like you who can make sense of that.

And thanks for caring enough about my posts to put so much emotion and passion into your reply. I'm very touched. (Btw, it is UOA, for used oil analysis. Not "OA".)

So should I be mad at them for charging me money for their services and making a profit? I don't think so, just as they won't be mad at me for trying to save some money AND get the parts I want. If you don't understand that, then you probably work for the government or a university. Or for the Democratic Party. I can hardly tell the difference among the three, so you'll have to help me out on that.

So with all the name calling and gnashing of teeth, I'm still waiting on some concrete data or evidence that is more than what you heard on the internet or what some random dude at a dealership told you. I do understand that backing up ridiculous statments and claims is stressful. Please feel freet to take your time with it. I'll be around.

 

[Spazbyt]

I have almost exclusively used Fram Tough Guard on all of my vehicles since the early 2000s and I can tell you from my experience they have really decreased in quality over the years. They used to have extra pleats in the filter, thicker gauge walls, and good texture on the outside. Now they are basically a budget filter with the end dipped in black paint. Imagine if you stuffed a coffee filter into Fanta can then plasti-dipped the end. Also, my good friend is an engineer and he invented the oil filter.

 

[FFPulley77]

 

[WJCO]

 

[jesse3638]

"I'm basing it on what dealerships have told me..."

Now there's a great source of information right there. Dealership personnel. I'm sure people care far more about what a service advisor says as opposed to a design engineer. Somewhere there might be someone like you who can make sense of that.

And thanks for caring enough about my posts to put so much emotion and passion into your reply. I'm very touched. (Btw, it is UOA, for used oil analysis. Not "OA".)

So should I be mad at them for charging me money for their services and making a profit? I don't think so, just as they won't be mad at me for trying to save some money AND get the parts I want. If you don't understand that, then you probably work for the government or a university. Or for the Democratic Party. I can hardly tell the difference among the three, so you'll have to help me out on that.

So with all the name calling and gnashing of teeth, I'm still waiting on some concrete data or evidence that is more than what you heard on the internet or what some random dude at a dealership told you. I do understand that backing up ridiculous statments and claims is stressful. Please feel freet to take your time with it. I'll be around.

Wow I feel really sorry for you. Having to be right all the time must make for a very uneventful life. Have fun with that I have better things to do. While yes I do work for the gov. I hardly align with the political agenda or feelings of most workers or dems. So try again. I do understand capitalism and see that you're trying to put it to the little guys who the gov fucked over last year. You're probably a union worker if I had to guess based on that. Being as entitled as you come across is the problem with most things these days. "They're going to have to compete" says everything I need to know about you. If you're so inclined to pay someone for their services why not just go with what they offer? Like I said good luck with your adventure. Hope it all works out for you.