Recent Shooting and Discussion

Prayers for the 17 kids killed today!

FallonJeeper said:
I'm resisting the urge to site drunk driving statics and make some ridiculous comment about how we should make it more difficult to buy alcohol or cars.
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Why would those comments be ridiculous? If we are going to (and we should) have an honest conversation about the social utility of firearms, we should also discuss the social utility of a few other highly regulated things in our society.


Alcohol (data from CDC)
- There are approximately 88,000 deaths per year directly attributable to alcohol.

- There are about 27.12 deaths attributable to alcohol per 100,000 people.

- Alcohol is attributable to 1-10 deaths for adults aged 20-64.

- About 4,300 teenager deaths every year are attributable to alcohol.

- Each year, approximately 3 million violent crimes are attributable to alcohol.

- 40% of violent crime inmates were under the influence of alcohol when the crime was committed.

Cars (data from National Safety Council and National Highway Traffic Safety Administration)
- 40,200 people died in 2016 in car accidents.

- There are 12.2 deaths per 100,000 people.

- In 2017, the economic cost of vehicle deaths in the US for the first 6 months of the year was $191.7 billion.

- The economic cost of accidents in general exceeds $870 billion per year.

-75% of carbon monoxide emissions are caused by automobiles.

- In 2016, there were about 268.8 million vehicles on the road.

Firearms (data from Gun Violence Archive which is generally viewed by NRA types as being very anti-gun and very pro-gun control)

- In 2017 there were 15,590 deaths from firearms; if you include suicide, the number jumps up to 33,590 deaths.

- In 2017, 3,234 of the deaths were 12-17 year olds (this is all deaths and can include situations where the decedent was killed in the commission of a crime, in self-defense, or by accident).

-Excepting suicide, there are about 4.8 firearm related deaths per 100,000 people.

- It is estimated that there are about 364 million firearms in the US (this is an estimate based on yearly manufacture, import, and export rates.)

- 3% of the population owns about 50% of the firearms (that is lawfully purchased firearms…there is no reliable way to track unlawful ownership).

- Firearms are used in about 25% of all violent crimes.

- Wyoming has the highest per capita number of firearms in the country; Washington D.C. is second; Nevada is eighth.
 
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Brute said:
If you really care about your right to bear arms, you need to be involved in the discussion in finding solutions...legislation is like a pendulum...there are core passionate groups that are polarized on opposite sides of the pendulum, and a largely unapathetic group in the middle...when the middle group , sitting on the fence becomes energized to respond one way or the the other, they swing the pendulum...by voting in people to enact legislation.

Some think that the tool is not the problem...some think that is is...it's not that black and white. You might find that the tool may be just a part of the problem...
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You make some really good points. It’s definitely not black & white. And the AR may be “part” of the problem. Or it may not.

My logic tends to think like this:

1. Mass shootings with semi auto AR.
AR Bannned. (lets pretend they all disappeared)

2. Mass Shootings with semi Auto “Hunting Rifle”. “Hunting Rifle” Banned. (lets pretend they all disappeared)

3. Mass Shootings with semi Auto Pistol..... Banned...

4. Mass Shootings with revolvers.... Banned....

5. Mass Shooting with SA revolvers...
Banned.....

Somewhere in there you may want to re-check Crime and Murder statistics...

I worry it’s a downward slope... caused by a problem.... with most likely the wrong solution.
 
Prayers for the 17 kids killed today!

IMHO, we (as a collective nation) need to stop talking about the proposed solutions that make us feel warm and fuzzy like they will do anything at all in the long run.

It’s time to have the tougher conversation about the decay of our civilization. Our nation has become so incredibly narcissistic that we cannot fathom that another human being could disagree with our own personal views without being a racist, a fascist, a communist, whatever (pick your chosen political side or hateful generalization).

Unless and until we learn to actually give two fucks about each other again, this country will continue on its way to hell in a hand basket.

As the leaders of the free world, it is incredible to me just how uncivilized we have actually become.
 
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Sharkey said:
IMHO, we (as a collective nation) need to stop talking about the proposed solutions that make us feel warm and fuzzy like they will do anything at all in the long run.

It’s time to have the tougher conversation about the decay of our civilization. Our nation has become so incredibly narcissistic that we cannot fathom that another human being could disagree with our own personal views without being a racist, a fascist, a communist, whatever (pick your chosen political side or hateful generalization).

Unless and until we learn to actually give two fucks about each other again, this country will continue on its way to hell in a hand basket.

As the leaders of the free world, it is incredible to me just how uncivilized we have actually become.
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Well Said!
 
Prayers for the 17 kids killed today!

And for the record, I’m not against guns, alcohol, or cars. But, they are all deserving of rational regulation because their social utility is quickly diminished by their potential negative impacts on society.

Regulation should be based on fact, not fear. It should also balance the interests of law abiding citizens against the backdrop of the harm sought to be prevented.

None of it matters though if we continue to assign zero value to the lives, and differing opinions, of those around us. Crazy will always find a way to be crazy.
 
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Just curious, what’s the purpose of owning an AR anyway? Seems like a lousy choice for hunting or personal protection.


Cheers.
 
Wazzier said:
Just curious, what’s the purpose of owning an AR anyway? Seems like a lousy choice for hunting or personal protection.


Cheers.
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It is a fantastic choice for hunting, depending on the game. Hogs, coyote, etc. The AR platform isn't the first with a magazine so people arguing against it's ownership are silly and uninformed. There are a bunch of semi automatic rifles: M1 Garand, Mini 14, AK platform, AR10, M4, SKS, Mauser. All semi automatic rifles would have to banned. They all have detachable magazines. Shotguns and pistols can be semi automatic as well. The AR platform just has a trillion accessories and looks scary because the military uses it however they (branches world wide) use many of the examples listed above and others of course. Hell i have two AR rifles and they aren't even my preferred long gun. They are just cheap to build and marginally easier to shoot.
 
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Wazzier said:
Ya but why do you have two? I’m certainly not saying your wrong to own them, just curious why they are so popular. I have zero experience with it and never plan to.


Cheers.
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They are really easy to shoot, with light recoil, and are a lot of fun. Mainly, because being libertarian, I believe in liberty. I have them, because I can. The Constitution protects my right to have them.


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kscobra said:
Screw the gun control arguments, and the mental health arguments. Let’s get down to an issue never talked about. How in the hell does a 19 year old man walk into a school with a long gun unnoticed? Why doesn’t anyone want to lock our schools down for our own kids safety and well being? My kids school locks the doors and you have to ring a bell to get in, but every time I walk up they let me right in. Ban AR rifles isn’t going to stop this from happening. Sandy Hook was handguns. It’s time to make our schools safe, and that starts with security measures at school.


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Maybe you should watch the news before commenting. The schools doors were locked. He entered the school during dismissal and he looked like a student. Someone also commented about there being a police presence at schools. It's a great idea but unfortunately it doesn't fall into towns budgets. I'm not a gun owner but I believe in the right to own a gun. I do have a question for you gun owners tho. Why do you need a AR15?


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Prayers for the 17 kids killed today!

Properly set up, an “AR” can be effective both for personal defense and for hunting (provided the size of the game is appropriate for the caliber used).

In the hands of the right person, a bolt action “hunting” rifle with detachable magazines, or a lever-action rifle, are darn near every bit as potentially deadly as an AR/AK in a “mass shooting” situation.

While your question is fair, the real question still needs to be “why are people killing each other?”...not “why did they use an AR to fulfill their intent?” Removing the AR doesn’t remove the intent.
 
Mountainjk10 said:
Maybe you should watch the news before commenting. The schools doors were locked. He entered the school during dismissal and he looked like a student. Someone also commented about there being a police presence at schools. It's a great idea but unfortunately it doesn't fall into towns budgets. I'm not a gun owner but I believe in the right to own a gun. I do have a question for you gun owners tho. Why do you need a AR15?


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See two posts above you


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Sharkey said:
IMHO, we (as a collective nation) need to stop talking about the proposed solutions that make us feel warm and fuzzy like they will do anything at all in the long run.

It’s time to have the tougher conversation about the decay of our civilization. Our nation has become so incredibly narcissistic that we cannot fathom that another human being could disagree with our own personal views without being a racist, a fascist, a communist, whatever (pick your chosen political side or hateful generalization).

Unless and until we learn to actually give two fucks about each other again, this country will continue on its way to hell in a hand basket.

As the leaders of the free world, it is incredible to me just how uncivilized we have actually become.
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^^^This^^^

Last October my wife had a student in her class pass away suddenly and unexpectedly. While the majority of the parents at the school empathized with the situation, taking the time to understand the circumstances, and wanted to support all affected by this, there was a small group who didn't. They were the ones looking to see how this could have been prevented even going as far to say my wife could have and should have done more to prevent this tragedy. She is a school teacher, very limited in what she can do, and did everything in her power but yet was receiving texts outlining how what she did was not enough and how she needed to do more. The reality, the little girl has parents who are ultimately responsible for their child's well being. They paid the ultimate price for their over site and not acting timely. In tragedy there are always people who want to try to blame someone or something other than the person responsible. Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Personal accountability, appreciation, and respect for others goes a long way.

Just finished a book by John C. Maxwell called "Sometimes You Win, Sometimes You Learn" which was given to me my Assistant District Chief. One point highlights the fact that we as people have no control over others. We only have control over our reactions to others. If most people realized this and appreciated one another as you mentioned Sharkey, got rid of the ME, ME, ME! mentality, we'd get along fine. It seems most of the people on this very forum get along well because we can have constructive disagreements (as in this thread) understanding we all will have opinions. If you don't you end up with a hillbilly thread all to yourself...haha. The book I mentioned is a very good and quick read for anyone interested.
 
Mountainjk10 said:
Maybe you should watch the news before commenting. The schools doors were locked. He entered the school during dismissal and he looked like a student. Someone also commented about there being a police presence at schools. It's a great idea but unfortunately it doesn't fall into towns budgets. I'm not a gun owner but I believe in the right to own a gun. I do have a question for you gun owners tho. Why do you need a AR15?


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I did watch the news, point being is no man at anytime looking like a student or not should not be able to walk into a school with a long rifle unnoticed. Period. My reason for owning AR-15’s is simple. I built one to hunt coyotes, the other is a target rifle. It’s a cheap round, it’s not a high power rifle as advertised being some states won’t even allow deer hunting with it ( being it is considered to weak). The reason it is used so widely now I believe, is you can purchase one very cheap. It used to be a relatively expensive firearm. Now every fly by night company makes a 500 dollar version.


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notnalc68 said:
They are really easy to shoot, with light recoil, and are a lot of fun. Mainly, because being libertarian, I believe in liberty. I have them, because I can. The Constitution protects my right to have them.


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Okay I accept those responses, thank you for the education. I have many conflicting thoughts about the subject still. But I feel none of us are going to change any of our minds.

Back to the original topic. I will lose sleep and mourn those kids, with a racing mind full of concern for America’s general ethics and mental health.




Cheers.
 
TrailHunter said:
I have to respectfully disagree with you as well Brute. If it wasn’t an AR it would be something else.... doesn’t matter. Guns have been readily available for 100 + years.... But in the last few decades, attitudes toward discipling kids has taken a wrong turn. This country has been brewing a dangerous cocktail of political correctness, prescription medication, & violent entertainment..... Combine that with a lack of Core Values and participation awards and you get what we have here today. The first line of defense is in the Home.
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Couldn’t agree more. 740,000 murders in 2016. 70,000 involved guns (less than 10%), less than 3000 (less than .5 percent of my math is right) are by ALL rifles not just AR-15s. Tell me why no one is in an uproar about the 670,000 people who have died by other means or even the 737,000 buy weapons other than rifles!? It’s not a gun issue it’s a political/media talking point to get more votes/power. If we are really concerned about preserving life why the HELL are we talking about AR-15s? And if guns were the issue. Why are the 100s of thousands of guns out there jumping out of their lockers and killing people by the millions?

Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it. Just ask the Jews, the Armenians, Chinese political dissidents, Cambodians, etc. Hell ask the Australians since guns were banned homicides went up 3.2 percent.


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