Rattle in any gear under approx 1000 rpm.

T

T.McD

Member
Hey All,

i have a rattle that i can create in any gear (i have a manual) under 1000rpm.
it's a 2013 unlimited and i have it into the dealer to have them find it.

a little back story first to help, when i bought it last fall i noticed that the throwout bearing was doing the rattle in a can sound so they replaced it. that fixed the rattle in a can, but when i got it back i had a bad gear mesh feel in 5th gear. took it back and they stated that it is normal and the service manager took me for a ride in another jeep to try and show me that it's normal......no gear mesh feel there, but he was adamant.....it was the dealer that i bought it from, so i decided to try the dealer that i bought my first JK from as it was closer to my house and they did some warranty work on my first JK and did a good job.

The second dealer felt the transmission gear mesh and said leave it with them right away. they took the tranny out and found that the input bearing to the trans was done and also replaced the input shaft as the bearing did it in as well. that fixed the gear mesh and also smoothed out the engine feel some, so all was good. about 3-4 months ago i started to get this rattle under 1000rpm and decided to take the jeep back to the dealer and the note on the service order was vibration in the engine, ( i was hoping that the rattle was assoc) so they checked it out and dug into the engine some and said that when the took the valve covers off they noticed may needle bearing in the cylinder head, so they replaced all the rocker arms. when i picked it up the engine sped up smoother, but the rattle under 1000 rpm is still there.......so i took it back and drove with the shop forman again and really showed him and he feels it maybe in the tranny again, but something else.....they want it again.....i'm going out of town this week so i decided that they can have it while i'm gone..

what i'm wondering is if throwout bearing can do this, but without the rattle in the can feel or should i be looking at the engine again. at first i thought it was dieseling, but tried higher octane and nothing. i have looked under and wiggled and tie wrapped anything that i thought it could be, also installed gear clamps on the exhaust cross over pipe.. nothing.....

any suggestions and things that should look at....i'm an industrial mechanic so i have the understanding but this one has stumped me..

thanks for any help and hope i didn't lose anyone with the long story,
 
I've experienced every noise known to man in my 2013 JKU manual. I had the marble-rattle, the TOB squeak, the clutch slave spring noise, etc.
I've had the TOB replaced a couple times, and the clutch fork once. When they replaced the clutch fork, I noticed the rattle disappeared completely and has not returned. A bad TOB will generally not "rattle", it makes a squealing noise that is usually only audible from outside the Jeep or with the doors off. It goes away when the clutch is depressed, but returns once you let off. The rattle or "dieseling" noise it commonly is referred to as making is a mystery. But like I said, once the dealership replaced the clutch fork, I have had silent running and no knocking either at idle or while in gear and driving. If you're only hitting 1k RPM, you're probably in too high a gear anyhow, and that may cause the stick to rattle excessively, making a similar noise.
When I shift gears, it sounds like an 18 wheel rig. I've found dealerships will inherently replace parts that they have no need to replace that they say is causing whatever ails your Jeep. Best bet is to take it to a qualified mechanic and have them give you expert analysis before you take it to the dealership. I have a mechanic that I trust, but even he is boggled by the odd noises coming from the Wrangler transmission.
I've learned now to just live with the creaks and rattles and clunks. It just adds to the "Jeep charm", I tell myself. :doh:
 
My 09 manual has always had a rattling or whatever you want to call it when the RPMs get that low. I just shift... I figure mine is caused from the extra stress on the drive train from having larger tires and not re-gearing yet (still on 3.21).
 
rich67 said:
I've experienced every noise known to man in my 2013 JKU manual. I had the marble-rattle, the TOB squeak, the clutch slave spring noise, etc.
I've had the TOB replaced a couple times, and the clutch fork once. When they replaced the clutch fork, I noticed the rattle disappeared completely and has not returned. A bad TOB will generally not "rattle", it makes a squealing noise that is usually only audible from outside the Jeep or with the doors off. It goes away when the clutch is depressed, but returns once you let off. The rattle or "dieseling" noise it commonly is referred to as making is a mystery. But like I said, once the dealership replaced the clutch fork, I have had silent running and no knocking either at idle or while in gear and driving. If you're only hitting 1k RPM, you're probably in too high a gear anyhow, and that may cause the stick to rattle excessively, making a similar noise.
When I shift gears, it sounds like an 18 wheel rig. I've found dealerships will inherently replace parts that they have no need to replace that they say is causing whatever ails your Jeep. Best bet is to take it to a qualified mechanic and have them give you expert analysis before you take it to the dealership. I have a mechanic that I trust, but even he is boggled by the odd noises coming from the Wrangler transmission.
I've learned now to just live with the creaks and rattles and clunks. It just adds to the "Jeep charm", I tell myself. :doh:
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply. i like the clutch fork as it makes some sense. i will run it by my mechanic (father, Caterpillar mechanic) but not in the same city unfortunately. growing up, he would diagnose issues with my cars as a teenager over the phone and with me describing the issue, but this one as got him stumped......plus the jeep is still under warranty so i may as well let them try. there shop foreman has been good so far.

i don't normally drive the jeep low in the rpm, but when i can't get away from it is when i'm taking off from a stop. i only tried to see if the same symptoms would show up in other gears and only be a first gear issue or all.....i can bog the jeep down in any gear and make the same rattling.
 
Stotch said:
My 09 manual has always had a rattling or whatever you want to call it when the RPMs get that low. I just shift... I figure mine is caused from the extra stress on the drive train from having larger tires and not re-gearing yet (still on 3.21).
Click to expand...

i was thinking the same thing (i have 3:73) as i have the 35's on to play around with until the lift parts arrive. i though it was dieseling but changing to higher octane didn't help any.
 
Every manual jeep I've heard does that if rpms are to low mine included. I take off at about 1100 to 1200
 
That is ehat I've been doing lately and it seems to help. But every so often I start it right from idle and put along in traffic in first gear and when I need to gas it some I get the rattle. I have never had this in my older jeeps. But again I didn't have this tranny.
 
Didn't read anything in the thread aside from this

T.McD said:
Hey All,

i have a rattle that i can create in any gear (i have a manual) under 1000rpm. ,
Click to expand...

Welcome to Wayalife.


It's called "pinging", you need to learn how to drive a manual properly.
 
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DWiggles said:
Welcome to Wayalife.
Click to expand...

I almost wrote the same thing, but he did do a welcome thread in June... just not much of a talker: http://wayalife.com/showthread.php?37730-wave-from-Ottawa-ON&p=723113#post723113

DWiggles said:
It's called "pinging", you need to learn how to drive a manual properly.
Click to expand...

Good to know, I've never heard a term for it. I'll know what to call it now!

It does make sense that this would be more common in a jeep with larger tires and no re-gearing since the RPMs will be lower at the same speed. This means you will get "pinging" :thumb: at a higher speed than you would in a stock jeep.
 
Stotch said:
I almost wrote the same thing, but he did do a welcome thread in June... just not much of a talker: http://wayalife.com/showthread.php?37730-wave-from-Ottawa-ON&p=723113#post723113



Good to know, I've never heard a term for it. I'll know what to call it now!

It does make sense that this would be more common in a jeep with larger tires and no re-gearing since the RPMs will be lower at the same speed. This means you will get "pinging" :thumb: at a higher speed than you would in a stock jeep.
Click to expand...

So are you saying OP doesn't contribute to the knowlege here and only wishes to benifit from it?? This should go over well...

Pinging isn't just a noise, what's happening is the piston isn't able to move through the stroke at the same relative rate to match the expansion of the fuel mixture (compression ratio), as a result, this is excessively loading crank bearings, this term can also be known as "detination" ... this is the part of the post I would generally explain in technical detail what's going on, but being that the OP believes he can benifit without contribution I'll let him do the leg work. I'm sure there is a youtube video out there somewhere. :nah:
 
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Thanks DWiggles. i appreciate the feedback.

What i was trying to say about able to duplicate in any gear is that if i wanted to, i can drop the rpms and the rattle is there, say in 2nd or third etc just to see if its one gear or all. What i seem to be seeing is that i can make this happen from a stop in first gear (that is what started the whole thing). that is what is different from any other time.

yup it could be ping or detination, but i tried higher octane and it didn't help any. so that is why i was starting to rule that out.
driving a manual is not the problem, but having to rev higher then 1000 rpm is not needed, to rev the engine and ride the clutch some to get started even with the lower gear numbers.


i had may jeeps with larger tires before re gearing and didn't have this type of rattle before. i remember the old days of the 4L and having 3:07 gears and trying to run 33'sb before gearing to 4:10s. that would bog the engine but not have this rattle.


thanks guys for the info. yup, i don't talk much, i tend to watch, learn and try things. i joined a while ago in the thought i was getting a JK as i had only the older stuff but the older stuff worked well and didn't need to cchange things. so when i did i waved and am just now getting around to getting to ask questions and in the hope i know anything worth while share it back...



DWiggles said:
Didn't read anything in the thread aside from this



Welcome to Wayalife.


It's called "pinging", you need to learn how to drive a manual properly.
Click to expand...
 
DWiggles said:
So are you saying OP doesn't contribute to the knowlege here and only wishes to benifit from it?? This should go over well...

Pinging isn't just a noise, what's happening is the piston isn't able to move through the stroke at the same relative rate to match the expansion of the fuel mixture (compression ratio), as a result, this is excessively loading crank bearings, this term can also be known as "detination" ... this is the part of the post I would generally explain in technical detail what's going on, but being that the OP believes he can benifit without contribution I'll let him do the leg work. I'm sure there is a youtube video out there somewhere. :nah:
Click to expand...

:giveup: Not defending his lack of contribution, merely pointing out that there was a welcome thread.

Clearly you are much more knowledgeable than I on this subject. I thank you for sharing! If you are still willing to discuss further... will this pinging sound be coming from the bottom of the engine where the crank is then? The sound I'm referring to (and I think what the OP was) sounds like it comes from the transmission :idontknow: I think I have heard it called lugging... It's more of an operator error and can be harder to avoid when not geared correctly.
 
Stotch said:
:giveup: Not defending his lack of contribution, merely pointing out that there was a welcome thread.

Clearly you are much more knowledgeable than I on this subject. I thank you for sharing! If you are still willing to discuss further... will this pinging sound be coming from the bottom of the engine where the crank is then? The sound I'm referring to (and I think what the OP was) sounds like it comes from the transmission :idontknow: I think I have heard it called lugging... It's more of an operator error and can be harder to avoid when not geared correctly.
Click to expand...

Dwiggles, when the engine is pinging/dieseling/lugging, what is exactly rattling then. is it the crank, rockers etc. that may help me see if i can pin point the rattile better and make a better judgement of the issue. if there is a issue to begin with then.

as for the contribution, i may not type much, often, but it will come out in time. i am going thru a slow down phase on the jeep as i have 2 kids under the age of 4, so most of my time, building and wheeling time is taken up for the time being. will get more as they get older.
 
T.McD said:
Dwiggles, when the engine is pinging/dieseling/lugging, what is exactly rattling then. is it the crank, rockers etc. that may help me see if i can pin point the rattile better and make a better judgement of the issue. if there is a issue to begin with then.

as for the contribution, i may not type much, often, but it will come out in time. i am going thru a slow down phase on the jeep as i have 2 kids under the age of 4, so most of my time, building and wheeling time is taken up for the time being. will get more as they get older.
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I believe what he is saying is that it's not an issue with the engine, it's an issue of you bogging it with low RPMs putting undue stress on it.
 
swampdog said:
I believe what he is saying is that it's not an issue with the engine, it's an issue of you bogging it with low RPMs putting undue stress on it.
Click to expand...


i completely agree. since i'm going out of town business tomorrow for the rest of the week and the dealer wants to see if they can find it, so i will see what they find if anything. i will be putting my winter tires back on in a couple of months so if nothing comes of the dealer and it is me bogging down, i can see if the factory tires do it after and if it does, then i see a regear in my spring time future. i was hoping that by getting the 3:73 gears i could get by for sometime and just not have as much power. maybe not.

what is getting me on the these JK's is the i'm just not used to these new engines and had been driving the old 4l's for 20 years.

Thanks for help and i will update with what the dealer says if anythng. cheers
 
im curiouse so subscribing but i always thought it was normal........ always did that with other cars too... a rattle when i try to take off at really low RPMs in any gear :thinking:
 
DWiggles said:
So are you saying OP doesn't contribute to the knowlege here and only wishes to benifit from it?? This should go over well...

Pinging isn't just a noise, what's happening is the piston isn't able to move through the stroke at the same relative rate to match the expansion of the fuel mixture (compression ratio), as a result, this is excessively loading crank bearings, this term can also be known as "detination" ... this is the part of the post I would generally explain in technical detail what's going on, but being that the OP believes he can benifit without contribution I'll let him do the leg work. I'm sure there is a youtube video out there somewhere. :nah:
Click to expand...

Dwiggles,

in what does the rattle resonate from. the crank bearings or translates up to the cylinder heads etc. i'm a visual type of person and like to see what is really going on and imagine it. i understand things better that way.
 
DWiggles said:
Ding ding ding. :)
Click to expand...

that i got..:) i understand what your say.
but when you say "Pinging isn't just a noise, what's happening is the piston isn't able to move through the stroke at the same relative rate to match the expansion of the fuel mixture (compression ratio), as a result, this is excessively loading crank bearings, this term can also be known as "detination" ... this is the part of the post I would generally explain in technical detail what's going on, but being that the OP believes he can benifit without contribution I'll let him do the leg work"

is the noise in the crank bearings or being translated to somewhere else like the rockers etc.

i appreciate the help.
 
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