I have a dilemma. Need advice from more experienced jeepers.

C

cosmokenney

Caught the Bug
I have a 2019 JL 2 door Rubicon. I wanted to build a very capable backcountry access vehicle out of it. Something that would easily get me through any unmaintained forest service road to go fly fishing or camping or in winter, to the start of a backcountry skiing ascent. There are a lot of roads like that here in northern California and some are more like OHV trails than roads in terms of technicality.
I did what I'd consider a modest lift at 2.5 inches and went with 37" tires to maximize diff clearance. I went with a full Rancho lift. Including their heavy duty upper and lower, front and rear, control arms and trackbars. That almost immediately lead to a shimmy in the steering that started getting more and more noticeable. Now, at 32 - 36 PSI in the tires, it is close to wobbling but doesn't go crazy. But if I am aired down it goes full wobble. And since I use this jeep almost exclusively for off road driving, I tend to just leave the tires at between 17 and 20 psi. The wobble kicks in as soon as I go over 46 mph and hit any kind of bump -- on pavement.
So now that I have started experiencing DW, I threw some money at it. I installed a Rusty's frame-side track bar brace, Metal Cloak drag link and tie rod. TeraFlex HD ball joints. And already had a Fox TS stabilizer that I got covered by the steering stabilizer TSB. I also installed the shouldered 9/16" trackbar bolts.

After I installed the lift, I had a shop that WFO Concepts recommended do a full alignment. And all wheels where balanced. After I installed the tie rod and drag link, I double checked the toe and caster (at home).

I am starting to suspect the Pro Comp wheels might be part of the problem since, it turns out, they are lug centric. So I am considering selling off the wheels and 37" pats. I am also considering down sizing to 35" tires when I get the new wheel/tire setup. But that, is kind of my dilemma, I had 5:13 gears installed. And I kinda think that would be pretty low gearing for 35" tires. And there is no way I can dump another $3k to regear again.

I should also note that I have total of about 3000 - 4000 miles on the lift and probably 1/2 that on the steering components and ball joints. And if I am being honest, I almost feel like the metal cloak steering components made matters worse than stock. Everything has been retorqued since the initial install. And when I did that, I found that the front UCA jam nuts were finger lose -- so much for the high $ alignment.
 
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I'd start by balancing the tires. After that I'd look at the ball joints and the track bar bushings. Have someone turn the wheel back and forth slowly and look for play in any of the rod ends and bushings. Also those tires suck. With any air pressure.
 
DirtHeadDavis said:
I'd start by balancing the tires. After that I'd look at the ball joints and the track bar bushings. Have someone turn the wheel back and forth slowly and look for play in any of the rod ends and bushings. Also those tires suck. With any air pressure.
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Its funny because I had the gen 1 pats on it before the lift in size ~34-35" diameter. And those did okay in the dry/mud/snow when aired down. However they were scary AF on wet pavement. In my neck of the woods I find the 37" gen 2 pats to be pretty decent during the dry months and in mud. But, only barely useable in the snow. I have been considering dumping them for a while but can't decide what to replace them with since I want more performance in the snow.
It is worth mentioning that the alignment and balancing shop mentioned they can never get the pats balanced perfect. So that may well be what I am dealing with.
 
I haven't met a single person who's honest with themselves to say that they've been able to balance Patagonias. I definitely would start by ditching them. If you have a friend you can temporarily swap tires with just for testing, that would help to zero in on what you need to do to address your problem.

That said, I would also ditch your Fox stabilizer and install either an OE or a Rancho one. I have tested all 3 and more and can tell you that I found the later 2 to perform better (Rancho best) at dampening hits and help mitigate wobble.

Regarding your other mods, the 9/16" bolts was just a snake oil fix. So long as your bolts are tightened to the proper torque setting, the factory bolts will do the job well. In the over 25 years of doing this Jeep thing, they are all I've ever run.

If you still have your factory steering components laying around, swapping them back in for testing is what I would. While they aren't the toughest components in terms of taking a hit, they do use clevite bushings and they will do a better job mitigating movement than a softer bushing.
 
cosmokenney said:
Its funny because I had the gen 1 pats on it before the lift in size ~34-35" diameter. And those did okay in the dry/mud/snow when aired down. However they were scary AF on wet pavement. In my neck of the woods I find the 37" gen 2 pats to be pretty decent during the dry months and in mud. But, only barely useable in the snow. I have been considering dumping them for a while but can't decide what to replace them with since I want more performance in the snow.
It is worth mentioning that the alignment and balancing shop mentioned they can never get the pats balanced perfect. So that may well be what I am dealing with.
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Wait a minute, I didn’t read the first post, but you said you had the first gen pats and they were scary as fuck but yet you bought another set? wtf?
 
BF Goodrich T/A KO2 and Falcon Wildpeak A/T3W are snow rated tires with a good reputation.

The compounds used in really aggressive off-road tires harden up in extreme cold so they are not as good in snow.

If snow is really important to you then you could buy two sets of wheels and tires.
 
DWs are caused by something worn, loose, flexing and/or cracked. Leading causes are
- Ball joints. Start by checking the steering knuckle ball joints. Check aggressively for any kind of play. One way is to jack up the front end and lift the front tire with a long, sturdy prybar. Get aggressive, like you want the ball joint to be bad. (Just don't knock the Jeep off the jackstands.) Next, check each ball joint for the drag link and tie rod. Again, be aggressive. I know you had new ball joints installed, but check them again. They might not be installed or torqued correctly
- Track bar. Check for loose bolts, wallowed out mount holes, worn/cracked/sloppy bushings. Track bar could also be bent, weakening it to be prone to flexing
- Drag link. Inspect the ball joints for looseness and wear. Check the adjuster for looseness, wear and/or damaged threads. Check for bends. Bends can lead to flexing
- Unit bearings (wheel bearings). Check for radial & axial play. See if the wheels will spin freely. If there are any hitches or roughness, the bearings are bad. Keep in mind there will be drag from the brakes.
- Cracked frame. I had an XJ develop DWs because the frame cracked where the steering box mounted
- Tie rods. I'm not certain a bad tie rod will cause DWs. I'm also not certain they won't. Even so, inspect the tie rod for loose/worn ball joints, straightness and for worn adjusters.
- Steering stabilizer: The steering stabilizer will not cause or fix DWs. However, the JL relies on the SS to damp oscillations occurring in the factory steering from something flexing. The flexing is due to the lightening of the track bar, drag link & tie rod to shave weight

Things that don't cause/fix DWs
- Alignment
- Tires
- Steering stabilizer

The above items might trigger DWs but cannot cause DWs. Alignment, tires and steering stabilizer cannot trigger DWs unless something is worn, loose, flexing and/or cracked.
 
OverlanderJK said:
Wait a minute, I didn’t read the first post, but you said you had the first gen pats and they were scary as fuck but yet you bought another set? wtf?
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Yes, the gen 1 pats were good everywhere else except for wet pavement. But they did need to be aired down for off road. I was all set to buy Ridge Grapplers when I went with 37s, but the internet said the gen 2 pats are sooo much better. They are better on wet pavement and, like pretty much any tire, do just fine in dry conditions.

What I really need is some tires that do pretty good in snow, and then I should be able to deal with dry season performance.
 
GP NOIR said:
DWs are caused by something worn, loose, flexing and/or cracked. Leading causes are
- Ball joints. Start by checking the steering knuckle ball joints. Check aggressively for any kind of play. One way is to jack up the front end and lift the front tire with a long, sturdy prybar. Get aggressive, like you want the ball joint to be bad. (Just don't knock the Jeep off the jackstands.) Next, check each ball joint for the drag link and tie rod. Again, be aggressive. I know you had new ball joints installed, but check them again. They might not be installed or torqued correctly
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That's what has me perplexed given the low mileage on the lift, TF ball joints and steering components.
 
wayoflife said:
That said, I would also ditch your Fox stabilizer and install either an OE or a Rancho one. I have tested all 3 and more and can tell you that I found the later 2 to perform better (Rancho best) at dampening hits and help mitigate wobble.
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Looks like Rancho has 5 different stabilizers. Do you recommend the red/white, or red/black version? The price difference is so minimal I'd get whichever one is recommended.
 
wayoflife said:
The black and red one is based off of the RS7MT and it's actually what I'm running on my 392 now.
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Okay, thanks! I just have to figure out which of the two red/black ones to get since I have a metal cloak axel side adapter/mount. I'll contact Rancho support about that. They've always been real good at answering questions.
 
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Sorry to hear your having such a hard time. Check the upper control arm bolt holes that were loose. It'll be a pain, but a loose track bar bolt wallowed out the hole on my JL and caused me some headaches.
 
I have new brake pads going in, so I am going to get under there tomorrow and take a look at all the suspension and steering connections.
 
ScoobyCarolanNC said:
Any update Cosmo?
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Thanks for checking in!
By the time I was done with the front brakes I was too tired to look at the control arms. I did, however, replace the fox TS stabilizer with a rancho stabilizer and the issue is less noticeable. So that's some kind of clue. I also made sure to very carefully seat the lug nuts while reinstalling the front wheels after the brakes (the wheels are lug centric). And I am getting a lot less of the up-and-down feeling I also used to experience.
I am going to get under there soon and check for play in all the steering and suspension components. But I may also look for a lighter tire which can also be balanced more easily.
 
I forgot to mention, while I was in there, I greased all the greaseable ball joints (tie rod and drag link) and went through the Teraflex Ball Joint adjustment procedure.
 
New 37" Falcon WildPeak A/T3Ws went on over the weekend. I cannot believe the difference. No steering wheel shake going over bumps. No death wobble.
I will say, I don't like the look of the Falcons as much, but I certainly can live with it.
 
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