Competition/Rock Crawler Line of Winches - Input Please

[JK_Dave]

In my quest for a new winch, I found a couple that advertised themselves as "competition" or "rock crawler" winches. Label aside, what I like about these is that they're smaller and lighter than most.

I am not here to debate which is better since on paper these two are essentially the same. I would like to hear any personal impressions with either, but mainly get opinions on the pros and cons. The main differences between these and other winches boils down to weight and line length.

Weight savings pays back in better gas mileage and being less nose heavy so better car balance f/r. This isn't really debateable since we'd all buy lighter winches if we could. Is the 50' line length a worrisome factor? I feel like I could offset the difference with a winch extension cable or tow strap, but does this method have any disadvantages?

Quadratec:
10,000 lb capacity rated
50' line (vs. standard 100' regular winch length)
Line speed 8.6 ft/min @ 8000 lbs
Weight 55lbs w/synthetic Dyneema rope
Dyneema rope 3/8" diameter rated at 18,000 lbs
Gear ratio 212:1
~$600



Warn:
9,000 lb capacity rates
50' line (vs. standard 100' regular winch length)
4.8hp motor
Line speed 8.0 ft/min @ 8000 lbs
Weight 54lbs w/synthetic rope
Spydura rope 3/8" diameter rated at ? lbs
Gear ratio 216:1
~$1550

 

[Elusive]

Keep in mind that synthetic line will require at least 5 full wraps of line on the drum so it doesnt spin when you winch. Now you only have about 45 feet of winch line and depending on what you use your jeep for that may not be enough to get to your anchor point.
Many times I've used every bit of winch cable

 

[JK_Dave]

One other point I just considered is the need for custom bolt hole positions in my bumper/mount. I'll need to see if this can be accomodated during the construction or if I'll have to add some new holes myself. That shouldn't be too bad though.

 

[GCM 2]

I have quite a lot of experience with the Warn 9.0 RC, and it is not a winch I would want to use for my daily driver in a recovery scenario. It's design works great for a race environment where really fast line speeds, both winching in and out, are a necessity for quick recoveries if you are on the clock and the recovery could mean causing a log jam for other race cars waiting to clear the same obstacle, or even keeping your car from a win. These winches are best suited for race cars, with co-drivers who need to be in and out of a car and running with a winchline to a recovery point for hook up, not waiting for a winch to unwind or trying to pull line off a large spool.

The 50' of line is barely enough in a race scenario, and as stated in the above post you are never actually working with a true 50' but much less. Plus I always jump out of the race car with a winch line extension/tree saver in hand. For the average weekend trail warrior, 50' of line is just not enough. Any weight savings you would achieve by running a lightweight competition winch is going to be gained back slowly by carrying another 20-30lbs of line extensions, straps and clevis'/D-rings to connect everything.

I have been a part of some of the worst possible recovery scenarios over the years and here is the one constant that has saved the day every single time = A PULLEY. Running your winch line through a pulley doubles the winches pulling capacity compared to a single line pull. Running a "Z" block (two pulleys in line) more than triples a winches ability to haul weight. Anytime you add a pulley in the mix, you effectively cut your exposed line's length in half. With a 50' line, you are only capable of using at most 40+ feet if you are lucky. Now let's say you need to add that pulley because your competition winch can't single line pull your jeep out of a difficult recovery, you are looking having (at best) 20' of winch line to self recover.

Back to the weight savings. A 55 lbs winch sounds awesome when compared to a 100+ lbs Warn PowerPlant. The 45lbs difference is the equivalent to about 5 gallons of fuel, or a high lift jack, or a large dog sitting in back, or a decent amount of tools, or a spare rear driveshaft. It's just not worth sweating about fuel mileage savings if you think a winch's weight savings is going to be the difference in changing your carbon foot print.

Personally, I would run a full size winch with a minimum of 100' of synthetic winch line capacity. Better to have and not need........:thumb:

 

[JK_Dave]

I really respect your opinion sir, and I've got to say I'm swayed back to a full size winch now. Any benefits these compact winches offer quickly go out the window the first time I'm stuck/stranded with no easy way out. I appreciate the time you gave to provide some real world examples too, really helpful.

 

[GCM 2]

I really respect your opinion sir, and I've got to say I'm swayed back to a full size winch now. Any benefits these compact winches offer quickly go out the window the first time I'm stuck/stranded with no easy way out. I appreciate the time you gave to provide some real world examples too, really helpful.

Please call me Greg, no sir needed . Your questions were completely valid and when Warn had first come out with their competition winch years ago, I contemplated running one on my TJ. The Warn RC is a sweet winch and works great, but it is limited in it's ability due to its compact size. Long, hard pulls can be tough on them, and really a long pull is almost impossible due to line length, but when the winch is truly stressed it can overheat. This can either shut the winch down at a bad time during a recovery, or even melt the winch line (synthetic) onto the spool.

I think all of this leads to why you just don't see many daily driven, full size rigs running small competition winches from any manufacturer.

 

[olram30]

i saw these and this thread answered all my questions about them. thanks guys!

 

[JKbrick]

Please call me Greg, no sir needed . Your questions were completely valid and when Warn had first come out with their competition winch years ago, I contemplated running one on my TJ. The Warn RC is a sweet winch and works great, but it is limited in it's ability due to its compact size. Long, hard pulls can be tough on them, and really a long pull is almost impossible due to line length, but when the winch is truly stressed it can overheat. This can either shut the winch down at a bad time during a recovery, or even melt the winch line (synthetic) onto the spool.

I think all of this leads to why you just don't see many daily driven, full size rigs running small competition winches from any manufacturer.

Thank you Greg, I too have asked about this same winch in a couple winch threads but nobody ever responded. I now know what not to spend $ on. Thanks again

 

[davantalus]

So assuming you're proficient in z-rigs, and MA systems...

Why not get a lower capacity (cheaper and lighter!) winch with double the rope length? (and perhaps some more in the cab)

 

[JK_Dave]

So assuming you're proficient in z-rigs, and MA systems...

Why not get a lower capacity (cheaper and lighter!) winch with double the rope length? (and perhaps some more in the cab)

Sorry, I'm not following the lower capacity/double length question. Do you have an example?

 

[OverlanderJK]

Sorry, I'm not following the lower capacity/double length question. Do you have an example?

Snatch blocks.

 

[JK_Dave]

I gotcha now. I guess I was approaching this from the angle of do I really need the extra length (and weight) on a regular basis. Sure, I could get a cheaper winch with a longer spool, but what really swayed me was the reliability factor and the added insurance of some extra line. Like Greg and yourself suggested, pulleys and extra line are part of winching so might as well go out there ready instead of handicapped.

 

[GCM 2]

So assuming you're proficient in z-rigs, and MA systems...

Why not get a lower capacity (cheaper and lighter!) winch with double the rope length? (and perhaps some more in the cab)

Because anytime you need to use mechanical advantage (MA) when using a winch means you are probably in a bad spot. I use snatch blocks/pulleys whenever possible because the rigs I wheel with, and mine, are super heavy and i try to winch smart under maximum slow line speed control. However, why would you want to start off already in a deficit with a lower capacity winch? By the time you have paid for the extra winch line extensions and clevis', you probably could have just bought a full size winch that holds 100'-150' of quality synthetic line. As I stated earlier, if running a small competition purpose winch was the better idea, you would see them on daily drivers on more trails every weekend. Remember, cheaper is not always better, as this kind of falls into the same category as the ever popular and never ending "I went with brand "X" rock sliders, because they were cheaper and lighter" debate. I stand by my claim of- competition, fast line speed winches are awesome.....for the race course. Full size winches- this is what you want for daily driver trail rigs, long single line, heavy pulls and slow controllable winch line speeds :thumb:

 

[BigBoy]

This is some of the best real world advice I have seen in a while. It's opinions like these that I can trust most. Thanks Greg!

 

[davantalus]

Newb question time!

Because anytime you need to use mechanical advantage (MA) when using a winch means you are probably in a bad spot.

How many pounds pull is a bad spot? Can I (with some effort) find myself in a situation which maxes a 12k lb 2-1 pull? Any idea roughly how much force Evo1 to the mirrors in mud would be?

However, why would you want to start off already in a deficit with a lower capacity winch?

For me it would be weight savings, but I'm sure many would consider the cost. Personally I'd be shopping for a solidly designed but lighter weight unit... Unless lots of pulls are above 10k pounds, then that wouldn't make much sense.

Again, I'm a total newb, but I would have thought the number of times you just need a small push from a further anchor outweighs the bigger closer pulls. Does your experience say the opposite? (Assuming I'm not a huge fan of mud).

By the time you have paid for the extra winch line extensions and clevis', you probably could have just bought a full size winch that holds 100'-150' of quality synthetic line.

Any idea what the typical distance a vehicle would travel under winch? Inconvenient, but technically I'd only need double that distance (plus a few wraps) on the actual spool, right?

 

[GCM 2]

All completely legitimate questions.

Newb question time!
How many pounds pull is a bad spot? Can I (with some effort) find myself in a situation which maxes a 12k lb 2-1 pull? Any idea roughly how much force Evo1 to the mirrors in mud would be?

The scenario with EVO1 on Drummond Island during the 2012 JKX is definitely considered a VERY HARD pull, and to be honest I didn't think we would get the jeep through the whole obstacle moving forward. I was wanting to pull Mel out backwards in his own tracks since they had not filled in :icon_crazy: As for how much force is holding the jeep in its place? Well that is hard to quantify, but I would bet it was double the weight of EVO1's 6000lbs since the initial single line pull we tried pulled the tree we were anchored to out of the ground. The jeep finally moved slowly forward when we attached the pulley.

For me it would be weight savings, but I'm sure many would consider the cost. Personally I'd be shopping for a solidly designed but lighter weight unit... Unless lots of pulls are above 10k pounds, then that wouldn't make much sense.

In the big picture of saving weight, this is an age old debate on how, where and when to try and drop pounds to increase mileage and its not something I personally get so fixated on that I ever lose sleep over. My jeep is big, its armored, it carries me and my load of stuff, and it gets combined city/hwy/trail mileage of 12mpg. I have accepted this. However saving weight is easy to do when most of your driving is around town= leave tools, hi-lift jack, spare tires (I never leave a spare behind) spare parts, supplies, roof racks, full fuel cans, etc all at home in the garage. Too many offroaders like to haul all there crap everywhere, all the time. Why, I'm not sure but if you want to prove to the world you are a serious, hardcore 4x4 dirt eating real man.....just put stickers all over your rig, they are lighter and say "look at me, I'm a badass" just as much as a full pioneer tool kit bolted to a roof rack (which is the second most effective wind brake next to a parachute). On the trail however, deciding what to absolutely take along and what you can do without is a struggle for some newer off roaders. It's something that only experience can teach. I'm pretty sure guys like Wayoflife and the other senior experienced wheelers (do not gauge this by forum post count either) are like me and have an almost identical load out for each and every trip. The only difference being the season and temperature changing what kind of clothing, sleeping and other comfort items I take along. But tools and offroad kit always remain the same and that's because I have learned what I need to cover down on almost every scenario. Another thing to consider is that any true effort to gain real weight savings on your jeep, is also going to have real weight reduction in another area.....your bank account :doh: buying high end, lighter weight, yet real quality parts is going to cost a bunch. I chose to basically lighten my jeep in a more permanent, and definitely noticeable, manner by getting rid of my full doors and hard top by running a Trek Top NX and Rugged Ridge plastic half doors. This helped to drop well over 400lbs of sprung weight. To me, saving 40-50lbs by choosing a tiny winch, which has a very narrow scope of use- the race course, is not worth getting anxious over. Another thing is that my winch of choice is a Warn PowerPlant, yes it's about 100lbs (probably less because I run synthetic line), but I also don't have to carry another compressor for on board air. The light weight competition winch is going to force you to have to carry another source for on board air, so you are gaining weight back that you thought you were saving.

Again, I'm a total newb, but I would have thought the number of times you just need a small push from a further anchor outweighs the bigger closer pulls. Does your experience say the opposite? (Assuming I'm not a huge fan of mud).

Yes, many times all you need is just a slight tug to overcome an obstacle. In fact, Wayolife and Carson Cindy has captured this on film when we ran Florence Junction back in May (?) of 2012. Check out the waterfall where I hang off EVO1's stinger and bounce enough traction onto the tires to climb over the 90 degree edge, then Mel returns the favor to literally hand pull my winch line and get EVOJEEP over the same waterfall. In fact Moby and the Powerline Patrol only needed human strength to clear it too!

There is no definite rule of how much effort you will need during recoveries. The words 'never' and 'always' do not apply to offroading :brows:

Any idea what the typical distance a vehicle would travel under winch? Inconvenient, but technically I'd only need double that distance (plus a few wraps) on the actual spool, right?

Man, if I knew this answer I would open fortune telling business Each incident will determine this distance and hopefully you have an anchor point that is suitably close, at the perfect angle pointing at the winch and more than sturdy enough to safely recover your vehicle......but the words 'never' and 'always' come to mind.

 

[OverlanderJK]

To show a little visual about what Greg said about EVO1's pull. If you look toward the bottom left of the picture you can see some numbers.

 

[piginajeep]

<<< walking to the garage to remove his jkx stickers.

 

[GCM 2]

<<< walking to the garage to remove his jkx stickers.

That is funny! You will always be a badass in my book :rock:

 

[wayoflife]

<<< walking to the garage to remove his jkx stickers.

:cheesy:......